Transferrable Kill Rights
The only useful thing coming out of the kill rights section of the devblog is that kill rights will now be transferable This has been a long time coming.Except that they're not really transferable. Rather, you can purchase the ability to activate a kill right for 15 minutes. This ability can be now purchased in space, with a right click, when you're on top of your target. If you happen to kill the target, the kill right expires immediately.
There's a big but coming, though. We all like big buts, right?
Highsec Gangbang
Kill rights are really gangbang rights. The one-on-one affair that kill rights used to be. No more. Activating a kill right means that anyone can attack and kill, without consequence. Activating a kill right is to apply the suspect flag onto that person.
The Punishment and The Crime
The punishment needn't fit the crime. Unlike the current system, where you actually have to blow something up for a victim to get a kill right, under the new system, simply aggressing a non-outlaw, non-suspect in highsec will give the "victim" a kill right.Failed ganks are to punished, according to the new mechanics. Let's say you fail on a highsec gank. CONCORD kills you and you lose your ship (not too mention getting ridiculed in local for being fail.) CCP says that's not quite punishment enough, and will give the surviving victim the right to kill you anywhere anytime for the next month. But that's not punishment enough either, since a kill right is actually a license to gangbang. You'll also get a special icon (shaped like a target) that tells everyone that you can be killed anywhere anytime, and with a simple right click (and maybe payment of some ISK) the kill right on you can be activated.
Alts Voiding Kill Rights
Undock in a shuttle. An alt activates the kill right. Blows up shuttle. Kill right completed.CCP will fix this cleverness quickly, since it voids the entire kill right system on zero day.
Kill Right Baiting
We can expect to see this nerfed in the future.Load a blingy-ship up with warp stabs. Wait for someone to buy the kill right off your alt. Warp to safes. Wait out the fifteen minute timer. Watch them curse. Earn ISK. Rinse and repeat for the rest of the month.
We'll see this done with blingy PvP fit ships and nearby logis, as well. I'm sure lots of different tactics to kill right bait will appear over time.
This is all perfectly, fine, but it will upset carebears, and CCP will respond. Carebears are naturally quite stupid, and CCP has determined it is their job to protect them.
Freighter Ganking
Goonswarm will deny that it will have any effect on their activities, and probably most times they'll be right. Every freighter ganker will have kill rights on them. All the Uedama and Niarja white knighters will be able to utilize those rights at anytime, with no threat to their own security.Goonswarm relies on high alpha ships and 0.5 CONCORD response to get multiple volleys off on freighters before the space police turn their ships to dust. The white knighters can just hang with the vulnerable freighter, and when the evil gankers swoop in, start alpha-ing the alpha-ers. If the gank ships can be killed before CONCORD arrives, then the gank becomes harder, if not outright impossible.
It's not like Goonswarm can fight back against the white knighters. White knights attacking folks with suspect flags, doesn't in turn make the white knight a suspect. If White Knight 1, 2 and 3 attacks Ganker A, Ganker B, C, D, E, and F don't get to assist Ganker A by attacking White Knights 1, 2, or 3.
Goonswarm's new profession doesn't become impossible, but it becomes a lot more difficult. If Goonswarm continues to remain profitable, then expect more nerfs in 2013. Perhaps turning Uedama into a 0.7 system or buffing freighter EHP. This will likely be the next line of attack by CCP in making highsec a land of safety and risk-free reward.
Boiling a Frog
As I wrote previously, this is another step towards sunshine and rainbows in highsec. Kill rights, rather than encouraging PvP in highsec, will effectively reduce it over the long haul. There'll still be those people who don't give a shit about the mechanics, but there'll be more people who will give up their highsec criminality, because being gangbanged at any time and any place is not desirable.CCP still gets to say that they have mechanics that allow highsec PvP. Wardecs. Bounties. Kill rights. But those systems also actively discourage highsec PvP, through mechanics that weigh far more in favour of the victims than the aggressors.
CSM7
Kudos to CSM7 for failing to recognize CCP's new philosophy for highsec development. For not speaking up. For rolling over and taking it. Nary a criticism from these clowns. Why? Because they fear loss of access to CCP devs. Access to development gives them a sense of power. Chatting up a celebrity dev no doubt gives on a warm special feeling inside. Access alone is power, they'll tell us. But it's a false power, because they've nothing to back it up.CCP tells the CSM that they plan to offer transferable kill rights. Someone on the CSM yells "Ship it now!" No questions asked. Just cheerleading.
The only the power the CSM can wield is that of public opinion. If the CSM cannot get the support of the playerbase behind them, they've zero leverage against CCP. It'll just be a few dudes, who think they're special, banging their head against a wall.
Better to be buddies with the devs while the game slowly gets fucked over, than to not be buddies. At least the CSM is making new friends. Extra Christmas cards in December.
>Goonswarm relies on high alpha ships
ReplyDeleteSuch as the talos and the brutix?
Well, they aren't built to for anything other than to get as much DPS out of them in a limited number of volleys. Because as soon as CONCORD arrives, they are dead rather quickly.
DeleteOf course, they rely on drones too, to confuse CONCORD target selection.
I listened to one of CSM Podcast where some of them went after Jester (Ripard Teg). The CSM dudes sounded like they were in an echo chamber spouting off insults towards Jester. Hell you and Jester do more to impact the game then any of those knuckle heads. Keep it up...
ReplyDeleteSuicide ganking, effectively dead.
ReplyDeleteCan flipping, if it wasn't already dead because of the huge ore holds, its dead now.
Mission bear baiting, made more difficult, yet again.
"Completely safe high sec" is almost there.
If this is high sec PvP then who cares if its nerfed.
DeleteSuicide ganking = kill big lumpy thing with no guns within set time limit
Can flipping - kill big lumpy thing with no guns that tries to stop you stealing stuff
I thought PvP meant a fight between players with, you know, guns and stuff. Now that CCP are giving you a mechanism for getting more of those fights you are complaining? Or is it because there is a possiblity that you will have to fight against the odds (perish the thought)!
Look at it this way. If you start to gank my freighter in high sec then my corp mates should have the right to pop you and your associates. What is wrong with that concept?
All high sec PVP resembles beating up special needs kids -it's pathetic and you should feel bad for caring about it.
Delete"CCP still gets to say that they have mechanics that allow highsec PvP. Wardecs. Bounties. Kill rights. But those systems also actively discourage highsec PvP, through mechanics that weigh far more in favour of the victims than the aggressors."
ReplyDeleteI'm trying to understand how any reasonable definition of the phrase "high-security space" could be construed to mean anything other than "mechanics that weigh far more in favor of the defenders than the aggressors."
"there'll be more people who will give up their highsec criminality, because being gangbanged at any time and any place is not desirable."
Ironic, then, that the events which spurred these changes being put on the front burner were people figuring out ways to gangbang people harder, under the old system.
"CCP will fix this cleverness quickly, since it voids the entire kill right system on zero day."
How? Basically, you're crying that the sky is falling, except in this quote above you point out that the sky isn't falling, except they will fix it so it is again. How? I'm not denying that it's possible, just haven't seen anyone suggest how they will be able to do so without leaving loopholes. I mean, they could make it so aggressing once means you're fair game to everyone, for 30 days, and getting killed doesn't erase that. That would be realistic, and harsh...wait, aren't those things you usually hold up as beneficial qualities? Why aren't they beneficial here? God forbid the "high-sec criminality" you are so in favor of, results in people being treated-in game-- as actual criminals.
I'm not trying to be snarky here, but let's look at the situation objectively. You don't want highsec to be "kinder, gentler". Ok...that's cool, I mean I personally don't see a problem with a small "kinder, gentler" highsec, although I would prefer that much of the profit/trade/industry be moved out of it. But let's move on.
So, there's one particular subgroup that wants highsec to be "realistic and harsh". This group is chiefly composed of highsec gankers. CCP has responded, they have created a system which makes highsec much more "realistic and harsh", SPECIFICALLY FOR THOSE WHO ASKED FOR IT. I mean, wow, well shot CCP, right?
I'm really curious, what exactly is the problem here? Those who asked for something, got it, specifically tailored to them. Are you saying that those who were asking for highsec to be "realistic and harsh" were actually asking for it to be "realistic and harsh" for carebears, but carefully crafted to prevent realistic retribution or punishment for them? It seems like your personal viewpoint is that "more pvp in highsec is always better". Meaningless pvp isn't harsh or realistic, it's not a cold, dark universe. It's just HalfLife2 with spaceships.
I live in a WH, as a new player I dabble in industry,pve, and pvp. If I lose, I don't much of value, so it doesn't feel all that harsh or cold even there...but at least there's the king of the hill aspect, the winner is still in WH space, the loser has to travel back which takes a bit of time--and in higher class WH's people actually take the time to clear hostile POS's from holes. If you read pvp advice for lowsec learning to pvp, it's to fly cheap ships, don't be afraid to lose them...wtf? What happened to consequences? They're specifically telling you that you shouldn't care, that there are no consequences.
It's cool if you love common and consequence-free pvp, and propagandize for it being encouraged. But don't pretend that it's somehow the opposite of "kind and gentle". That's ridiculous. It's just a more confrontational 'kind and gentle'--and when actual consequences are introduced to interfere with it, lovers of 'goodfites' react the same as lovers of cooperative pve--forum whining.
(continued)
ReplyDeleteSumming up, the point here is to analyze why this introduction of consequences into highsec is so roundly denounced by those who have used the rhetoric of romanticizing harsh consequences for years.
There are 4 categories:
Actual consequence-loving pvpers who don't mind these new consequences.
Goodfite pvpers, who love pvp without consequences, and see this change as reducing pvp by introducing consequences. This is true, and the only problem with these 'carebear pvpers' is that their rhetoric doesn't match their true position--and also they usually don't live in highsec so their rhetoric confuses them into opposing this change when really it doesn't affect them.
Gankers, who love consequences for others but not consequences for themselves. Basically, spoiled children, who whine about this change as expected.
Carebears, who like cooperation, and so like this change because it brings consequences only to those who have been crying out for more consequences for years, but not to them.
Which are you?
I think gankers will have a harder time. But I fail to see how the ability to fight back will reduce "HS PVP".
ReplyDeleteI understand that you define HS PVP as: Me, sitting in a gate, being protected by Concord, waiting for you to show up in a juice target so I can gank you.
Your definition does not include: You sitting there waiting to gank, and I preemptively buy your KR and kill you before you can kill my juice ship.
I can see that ganks will be harder for the professional gankers as people will be able to fight back, if they have KR on them. IF they don't, life goes as usual. KR can only be used once, so lets say the worst case scenario is one kill for one kill. If you really make a profit from ganking, that should not be a big problem.
All in all, seams fair to me. Real "Retribution" is possible, when now the only option in a counter suicide gank, with penalize the previous victim with a sec hit.
Again I'll say - why even care? it matters not if you don't play in highsec. If you do "PvP" in highsec, you are grieferbear who wouldn't last in a real fight (I'm not including organised, large scale, 0.0 sponsored freighter murder squads here - that will still have a place, still work, and still be hilarious. I'm talking about the person who thinks can flipping miners is "leet pvp").
ReplyDeleteHighsec is already "risk free reward", unless you are stupid. And stupidity will still result in death.
Go away, Rammstein.
ReplyDeleteJust go away, you sanctimonious windbag of a carebear.
For fuck's sake...
Sounds like someone hit a bit to close to home for you.
DeleteThat's a strangely thin-skinned reply...
DeleteYou know the guy? Personal history?
Isn't that their usual response?
Delete'Oh dear, someone is actually making a reasonable post in opposition to my dearly held right to gank people without consequence. I must rage!'
If you'd only used 3 more insults, I would have gone away. So close, but you stopped too soon.
DeleteDidn't you quit EVE already?
Except that ganking is not consequence-free, and never was, especially since insurance payout for ships lost to CONCORD was removed.
Delete(A change that I wholeheartedly supported --and still do, by the way-- despite having...errrrm..."accidentally'ed" the odd mining barge myself with my mates.)
That's why it's called suicide-ganking, you smugly self-satisfied, typically-carebear-myopic, useless tit.
There, that's three more insults --or at least two explicit plus one implied. Satisfied?
Next!
I never said ganking was consequence-free, so your barrage of insults has nothing to do with me. This is just you taking out your frustration with your poor real life employment situation, on some random guy on a blog somewhere who you think is a carebear living in highsec and said a bunch of things that annoy you, who actually doesn't live in highsec and never said the things you think he said. Sorry about your life, man, but I'm not part of it. Leave me out of it, and leave me our of your paranoid delusions here as well.
DeleteI love it how high sec carebears think this will keep people from "ganking" them or interfering with their carebearing, but in reality, it makes me want to gank them even more and this time for no god damn reason other than to piss them off. I used to do it for possible rewards and to piss them off but now Fuck'em. I will be buying many ships that I will use for the single purpose to ganking random carebears. Hulkageddon will become careageddon. Hulks, tengus, hell even the guy that is using a caracal to do level 2s will be a target. Who is with me!!
ReplyDeleteWhat's new? People gank for the lulz already.
DeleteThe tears from gankers about these changes are all because it won't be as easy any more. It will be awesome to have a free for all fight on a high sec gate because a freighter gets ganked.
Gankers seem to be whining about these changes because you may need to fight. High sec PVP is carebear PVP so lets get rid of all carebears.
But ... they don't think this is going to keep people from ganking them. Which carebear ever said such a thing? The only people I see talking about this shit are crybaby gankers and half-assed high-sec "pirates" who can't handle change.
Delete"Undock in a shuttle. An alt activates the kill right. Blows up shuttle. Kill right completed.
ReplyDeleteCCP will fix this cleverness quickly, since it voids the entire kill right system on zero day."
This assumes a lot of things, like a person putting the killrights up for free. cause are you really going to pay 100mil to get rid of killrights on yourself?
That's a safe assumption, considering before the iteration to wardecs, people weren't selling ally slots. Carebears will be more than happy to give away kill rights.
Delete"Please give away kill rights for free. Please give away kill rights for free. Please give away kill rights for free."
DeletePresumably gankers will pay whatever the price is if the benefit of not being shot at outweighs the price of the kill-right. For instance, if you gank in one of the more crowded systems or you use a more expensive ship.
Rammstein is right. You said, "because being gangbanged at any time and any place is not desirable." Hmmmm...so, it's desirable to do gangbang a defenseless mining ship, but not the elite PVPer in his/her combat ship? Hahahahaha! I couldn't read the rest of the article because of the huge glare of irony from that one statement...
ReplyDeleteThis. The griefer tears over these changes are quickly forming a sea of irony. Hisec is only "safer" in these circumstances if the gankers, thieves and griefers are too pathetic to face actual consequences for their actions.
DeleteI really expected better than this one-eyed, short sighted crap from you Poetic. Whatever legitimate analysis there is in there (and there is some) is massively overshadowed by what equates to a childish tantrum over being spanked for throwing rocks at the neighbour's kid.
The funny thing is that Poetic keeps saying that high-sec is going to get safer, but in reality, it's going to get more dangerous ... for gankers, pirates, and the like. He's either unwilling, or simply hasn't thought to flip the script and realize that safety and its absence extend not just to "victims" but to their predators, as well. And the funny thing is, these guys will talk all day about how the game becomes more "dynamic" if carebears aren't completely safe in their hidey-holes, and yet, the changes we're talking about here only have the same effect for gankers and pirates. They should be loving this, but instead it's a bunch of pissing and moaning, because at the end of the day, they don't want to drink the same cough medicine they prescribe to their targets.
DeleteI don't even care anymore. Its clear that hisec will be completely safe inevitably there is no use fighting it. Should focus instead on making sure risk-reward balance in the game is adjusted accordingly.
ReplyDeleteWe'll just buy our own kill rights. Who says we want to be ganking freighters in a month?
ReplyDeleteI'm all for people white knighting our ability to blow shit up in .5's, but we aren't really complaining. We've destroyed 1.6 trillion isk in 2 months. That's not too bad if you ask me. We'll just put bounties on every freighter pilot we see to counter troll this. you know we have the money.
What will you do if the tech rebalance doesn't favor you, can you survive without the great ISK faucet to suck on?
DeleteIt's been so long since you had to play EvE on the same level financially as anyone else it must be worrying for you now your safety blanket is threatened.
TL;DR: CCP is making it more difficult, but not impossible, for people to be dicks in the game. Lots of tears and tissues.
ReplyDeleteSeriously all this griefer crying is enough to drown your readers Poetic...
I am far from a carebear and I did not like many of the changes that have been made to make highsec safer.
ReplyDeleteThis one -maybe sadly- makes sense though. If you take a step back and try to analyse the new crimewatch system from an outsiders point of view: it is much more logical and coherent than what we now have.
And to be honest: it should carry to name "Highsec" for a reason!
If you want pewpew go to null and shoot people that can actually shoot back. I know that "some people" need fleets with 600+ in it to actually do that, but still better than ganking miners in Hisec...
It is, indeed, "Highsec" -- but it is not "Totalsec."
DeleteI don't get you. You talk about emergent gameplay, but you don't want players to be White Knights. Why can't someone be a White Knight PvP-er?
ReplyDeletePlease note that currently you can't be White Knight, attacking even a notorious ganker will give you sec status loss and ship loss.
CCP is nerfing highsec PvP to such a degree that there'll be very little to white knight. (I've nothing against white knighting.) Professions are being entirely nerfed ... the only reason to PvP in highsec will be tears. It just means people will have to do resort to PvE to fund their tear industry. Since the PvE in this game sucks so bad ... do they keep playing or do they quit? Probably the latter.
DeleteYes, everybody is going to quit playing because of this. Your apocalyptic viewpoint is so bold, refreshing, and novel. Never heard anything like it before.
DeleteWhat is big change to sbd. who up to now suicide ganks for profits?
DeleteYou use an alt to scan for valuable targets. Then you bring out your gank char to kill the juicy target (and get killed by Concord). You just need to make sure that you are not killed by "white knights" on the way to the gank. Shouldn't be that hard?
Ah Poetic, you always do hypocritical so well.
ReplyDeleteIsn't pvp meant to be in low sec, null sec and wormhole space? It seems the game as originally conceived aimed at pushing the most violent away from the reach of the law.
ReplyDelete"Meant", according to whom?
DeleteDon't go all Susan Black on us here Poe - there are two sides to this coin and you're ignoring one of them.
ReplyDeleteSure hisec is getting safer in some ways, but it's also getting less safe in others.
For a start, you can now suspect flag yourself at will by giving an alt your kill right and having them activate it. Anyone who attacks you (and let's face it, there will be plenty of people jumping at the opportunity to kill a 'bad person') is a legal target to you and can be killed. Providing you don't die (and let's face it, if you're smart you won't die) you can do this as often as you like without any worries. It's like can flipping, except you don't need a can.
In addition, any hisec dweller who has done a bit of lowsec roaming recently (which while not the majority, is a significant number) is now at risk of being ganked out of the blue when someone puts their kill right up for sale. In before 10 bil missioning tengus start dying when people thought they were 'safe'.
And let's be honest - hisec will be significantly *less safe* in general for anyone who PVPs. Gankers, lowsec roamers, etc. You're making me wonder whether when you say you want more risk in hisec, you really just mean more risk for the carebears? Sounds like hisec is going to get much more dangerous for people like us. ;)
And while not kill right related, the fact that you can now place a bounty on *anyone* means you can apply extra incentives for suicide gankers. Want hisec to be less safe for Generic Mining Corp 0123? Throw some isk at it, and watch the gankers make it so.
Maybe hisec is getting safer overall, but it's not the endless march to rainbows and unicorns that you think it is.
I don't quite get this paragraph of yours:
Delete"In addition, any hisec dweller who has done a bit of lowsec roaming recently (which while not the majority, is a significant number) is now at risk of being ganked out of the blue when someone puts their kill right up for sale."
Why would lowsec roaming affect kill rights for highsec dwellers? Unless I read kill rights wrong, you only give them for getting a criminal flag, and the only way to get a criminal tag in lowsec is to pod someone.
Time will tell. It's not rainbows and lollipops yet. We'll have to see what they do the next couple of expansions.
DeleteI have to chime in.. but the only people this really effects are the gankers. In HS. If your target fired back, no kill rights. In LS unless you're podded, no kill rights. And in WH. No kill rights period. So really the only people that could complain about the kill right issues are those that prey on the defenseless and in my mind, it's only fair that they can now be preyed upon as well.
DeleteAnonymous - that's how kill rights work now. In Retribution, kill rights will be given when you incur the criminal flag - it doesn't matter if they return fire, and doesn't even matter if they escape. Of course since you only get a criminal flag for hisec kills and lowsec pods, they probably won't fire back anyway.
DeletePoe - you're right, slight derp there. Some hisec dwellers do pod people in lowsec, but it's probably only a very small number due to the sec hit. Either way, that small number are going to have a bad time!
As a previously red flashy ganker... People could already always shoot me anyway. Nothing new there.
ReplyDeleteI love how when it's a bunch of ships attacking a defenseless freighter it's perfectly valid PVP, but when it's a bunch of ships attacking a PVP-fit ship, it's a "gangbang" that will destroy highsec PVP OMG.
ReplyDeleteIt only destroys PVP for people who can dish it out, but can't take it. Powers, who's apparently a Goon, seems to be willing to take what he dishes out. Are you?
"Griefing" for isk will be dead as CCP removes professions from the game in a (futile) atempt to make hisec a theme-park experience. Real griefing (for tears) will enjoy a new golden age with new mechanics that will confound the carebears :D
ReplyDelete